Any WHISK(e)Y, other spirits aficionados? Single malt, bourbon, rye, cognac, rum, etc.

[Gear_Junky]

I used to 100% not understand sipping spirits. Later on, maybe 7-ish years ago I tried some single malt and it gradually expanded my horizon to other spirits as well. Now, I was never into getting drunk, so we're not talking about chugging cheap swill here. I am not proposing snobbery, a few years ago I even went on an exploration where I was trying all the cheaper spirits, provided they were straight bourbon/rye or other stuff that met certain quality standards (not tequila mixta, not colored rum, not blended american whiskey).

So, do we have enough spirit enthusiasts here to talk bourbon hunting, tasting notes, independent bottlings, distillery visits, etc.?

Let's maybe start with this pic, this is NOT a bourbon, read the label

[nomadh]

I buy the vodka at vons in the plastic bottle thats 2 for $10. My kids snicker at me. I turn it into a margarita. Yes margarita. Works fine I've tried silver label whatsit and so and so's vodka and its all vicious and nasty but gets you just as drunk so why worry about it? I probably drink about 8 times a yr but it only really seems worth bother for the 3 or 4 times a year I drink enough to feel it.

[Gear_Junky]

I buy the vodka at vons in the plastic bottle thats 2 for $10. My kids snicker at me. I turn it into a margarita. Yes margarita. Works fine I've tried silver label whatsit and so and so's vodka and its all vicious and nasty but gets you just as drunk so why worry about it? I probably drink about 8 times a yr but it only really seems worth bother for the 3 or 4 times a year I drink enough to feel it.

Yes, there's nothing wrong with that... of course, any cheap guitar and solid state amp can get just as loud, so...

But yes, I once felt exactly like that - a few shots of vodka with dinner or a mixed drink that tastes good. Now it's about appreciating the aroma and flavor as well as the art of oak aging of these fine spirits.

[mickey]

[toomanycats]

Cork sniffers!!!

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[Gear_Junky]

One way or another my OP question is being answered

[toomanycats]

We actually had quite a long running thread on this topic on the old AGF. There are a lot of whiskey drinkers here, some of them into the good stuff, and I'm sure they'll chime in here eventually.

I personally like the spirit, though I'm typically a middle shelf guy. I drink mostly Evan Williams bottled in bond 100 proof, Ezra Brooks, Henry McKenna, and Buffalo Trace and Very Old Barton when I'm lucky enough to get it.

[ID10t]

I am a coin carrying member of the don't drink anymore club, believe me I met my lifetime quota. But in my family tradition of "I'm not an alcoholic, I drink good booze (there are worse iterations of that which I will not share)" I have connoisseured my share of Scotch and Bourbon.
Makers Mark 46 is very good enough and Bulleit is nice as well.
I will share how I enjoyed it most and that is warm. Not on the rocks. Neat, especially in a highball glass that you fill with hot water out of the kettle, then dump and wipe out with a clean kitchen towel and then a family pour.
Give it a wag.

[Blackened]

I'm no officianado but I do enjoy Bulleit from time to time and when I'm feeling snarky an 18 year glenfiddich. The latter is a rare occasion of course.

As a "daily drinker" (I'm not one but if I were...) Jameson black barrel is nice and Jim beam certainly goes down smooth enough.

[Gear_Junky]

...I drink mostly Evan Williams bottled in bond 100 proof, Ezra Brooks, Henry McKenna, and Buffalo Trace and Very Old Barton when I'm lucky enough to get it.

That right there is a great list, indicative of good taste! Evan Williams BIB and Ezra Brooks (black label, 90 proof) are real "sleepers" IMHO, they are the Agile/SX of bourbons (in that order, and only in terms of price-to-quality because real bourbon can only be made here). The others are also on the "you can't go wrong" list.

I am 100% not a snob, in fact, I've been finding that the best way to "upgrade" is to "side-grade", instead of paying stupid money for higher age statements or fancy marketing, it's better to explore the road less traveled. For Scotch it's independent bottlers (NDP - non-distilling bottler) like Signatory, Gordon & Macphail, Cadenhead's - depending on what's available to you locally. Also it can be the less famous labels, especially outside of the big multinational corporation owned brands. We may not be talking "cheap" or "old" here, but we're talking better product than the highly marketed 80 or 83 proof stuff. And opportunistic buys... I bought Signatory-bottled 21-year old Linkwood for well under $100/bottle. With these NDP's we're talking cask strength, well over 110 proof, so you get more of the product in same bottle. You can't even get Linkwood here in an official bottling. This is the oldest example, though, I typically play in the 10-12 year part of the spectrum and love exploring less aged malts, even single-digit, like from Kilchoman or Bruichladdich.

For bourbon and rye it's just about anything and everything "bonded" or "bottled in bond" (BiB). This is a guarantee of quality in and of itself and typically it's worth it for the companies to use their good stuff. And it tends to be fair priced as bonded bottling allows them to only pay taxes at bottling, not at the point of distillation, which savings carries over to the customer.

And of course Canadian whisky has its own sleepers. No, not Klown Royal (although Northern Harvest Rye is somewhat decent), but the likes of Lot No. 40. They do have other really good rye, but we can't always get that stuff here. Whistlepig is an example of outstanding Canadian rye from Alberta that is relabeled to be sold as US-made. And arguably overpriced, albeit good.

Personally I have very little interest in the overbranded stuff like JW Blue Label, Macallan, etc. (even if it's pretty good). Of course, occasionally opportunistic buys happen I feel similarly about the endangered species of our local craftsmen - like Pappy Van Winkle, Weller, Col. E.H. Taylor and the like. They are very good. But if you're in this hobby long enough, someone will pour you a dram - it's kind of pointless to enjoy such treasures all by yourself. They have to brag

[nomadh]

I buy the vodka at vons in the plastic bottle thats 2 for $10. My kids snicker at me. I turn it into a margarita. Yes margarita. Works fine I've tried silver label whatsit and so and so's vodka and its all vicious and nasty but gets you just as drunk so why worry about it? I probably drink about 8 times a yr but it only really seems worth bother for the 3 or 4 times a year I drink enough to feel it.

Yes, there's nothing wrong with that... of course, any cheap guitar and solid state amp can get just as loud, so...

But yes, I once felt exactly like that - a few shots of vodka with dinner or a mixed drink that tastes good. Now it's about appreciating the aroma and flavor as well as the art of oak aging of these fine spirits.

I'm just being a troll. Maybe someday I'll get it . Like when I grow up. Or have money to blow. I'm not into coke for the same reason

[PoodlesAgain]

Why, as a non-whiskey person, do I like straight rye?
(Sazerac, actually, first encountered in NOLA, made by Bullet Trace, I believe).

What quality is rye known to have that distinguishes it from other styles?

[Gear_Junky]

Why, as a non-whiskey person, do I like straight rye?
(Sazerac, actually, first encountered in NOLA, made by Bullet Trace, I believe).

What quality is rye known to have that distinguishes it from other styles?

1. I'm curious where you are that you're able to get Sazerac Rye (made by Buffalo Trace)? You don't have to answer if you don't want to. Like so many great whiskeys from Buffalo Trace, this one is being "hunted to extinction" (like those other poor buffaloes, eagles, staggs and colonels, haha). I have ever only seen precisely one bottle and I drove way across town to buy it. And haven't tried it yet

Technically speaking bourbon and American rye are on a spectrum - bourbon has more corn in the mash bill (at least 51%) with rye and malted barley being the "flavor grains". Some bourbons are "wheaters" - they use wheat instead of rye (Maker's Mark, Larceny, Old Fitzgerald, Weller, Pappy Van Winkle, etc.) American Rye has over 51% rye. There are some ryes that omit corn and only use a bit of malt in the mashbill to convert the starches into sugars. These include the many ryes made from the MGP, Indiana 95/5 juice (95% rye, 5% malt) and relabeled by producers who don't distill their own rye, like Bulleit Rye, Ezra Brooks Rye, James E. Pepper Rye, Rebel Yell Rye, George Dickel Rye and many more. Rye also can be bottled at younger age without being harsh, for example even the very basic mixing bourbons tend to be 4 years old. Some of the ryes from the list above are only 2 years old and quite sippable.

Generally people describe rye as "spicier". Based on my experience (and I love rye and have a collection within collection), I would say that it can be spicier, more robust, with more hints of notes you'd expect in rye bread - rye flavor itself, dill, caraway seeds, coriander seeds, etc. Sometimes you can taste mint, but that happens with bourbon also. Bear in mind, those are only hints, it still tastes like whiskey and not unlike bourbon. Think if someone asked you to describe the difference between white bread, whole wheat bread and rye bread - if you tried them, you know exactly, but if not, it's kind of hard to describe. They all taste like bread but are very different. And it can come across as more harsh to some people.

In addition to the ones I mentioned above, some of the great values in rye are: Rittenhouse Rye Bottled in Bond (from Heaven Hill), Wild Turkey Rye 101 (comes in 1L bottles for around $30 or so), Old Overholt Bonded (not the 80-proof), Balcones Texas Rye (pricier as it's a craft whiskey), and the Canadian Lot No. 40 if you can find it.

If you really want to go into this particular rabbit hole, there's the concept of "Old Monongahela" Pennsylvania-style rye and also Maryland rye - historic styles of rye whiskey without corn, which predate bourbon. Rye whisky was America's original spirit, long before bourbon existed, and this PA rye was the stuff of the Whiskey Rebellion (read up on it, it's a great story). This style of whiskey almost disappeared because of Prohibition. Today there are some craft producers trying to revive it, among them - Dad's Hat Pennsylvania Rye.

[Gear_Junky]

There is also an unofficial category of high rye bourbons (let's say with over 15% rye in the mashbill) - examples are Old Granddad, Woodford Reserve, Basil Hayden's and Four Roses (among many others).

[PoodlesAgain]

Thanks [mention]Gear_Junky[/mention]. I got my "Sazerac Rye" brand at the local liquor store chain, here on Cape Cod, just got my second bottle.
NOLA staple cocktail base, I hear.

So, as rye is typically younger, the taste may be milder?

Speaking of LA, rough, rough weather situation coming, expected intensity gone up.

[Gear_Junky]

Thanks @Gear_Junky. I got my "Sazerac Rye" brand at the local liquor store chain, here on Cape Cod, just got my second bottle.
NOLA staple cocktail base, I hear.

Well, there was an old cocktail named "Sazerac", which included Cognac and absinthe. At some point Cognac became scarce or less affordable, so it was replaced by local alternatives, particularly rye whiskey. At some point crafty people (something tells me lawyers) made sure that only the branded Sazerac rye was allowed to be listed in official recipes. So bars have to make the Sazerac cocktail with this rye. They could make the same cocktail with whatever else, conceivably making a better cocktail, but it wouldn't be legal to name it "Sazerac". This best source for this type of info is Chuck Cowdery - he has a blog (of the same name). He's a long time industry insider and a writer/historian of American whiskey. Very interesting.

So, as rye is typically younger, the taste may be milder?

Well, with whiskey/whisky younger typically means harsher, the taste mellows and becomes rounder and more complex with age. Rye just allows this point to be achieved sooner. It's like this: fresh off the still the distillate mostly smells and tastes of the raw ingredients (brandy smells of fruit, proto-whisky distillate smells of the "beer" that it came from, tequila smells of agave, etc.). Then the longer it spends in a barrel, the more additional complexity is developed (extracted) from the wood, but it's not mere extraction, there are hundreds of reactions happening. New aromatics are formed (that's how you can get tropical fruit and spice aromas from grain). Usually the overall profile is perceived as milder (charred oak also filters out some of the harsher compounds). Younger spirit showcases the raw ingredients, while older spirit showcases oak maturation. But rye is an intensely flavored grain, so younger rye tastes more like rye. It is similar with tequila - when aged too long, it loses the agave freshness and becomes more rum-like. These are generalities, of course. There is (or used to be) Sazerac 18-yo rye. I've never had it but it has great reputation.

Bourbon is generally believed to be at its peak at younger age than Scotch, some people even think that much beyond 10 years is "over-oaked" (Jimmy Russell, master distiller of Wild Turkey is among them). But I tasted 18 and 21-yo bourbons and they were very good, so it really depends. These things are not linear and paying more for older spirit will not always buy better taste.

[Gear_Junky]

P.S. I don't want to come across as some savant or know-it-all. I do like to geek out about this stuff, but I learned a lot by watching reviews by Ralfy Mitchell (Ralfystuff) but also by reading a lot and, of course, sampling - the best part of the hobby

That's just how I tend to approach things that interest me - for me to fully enjoy/appreciate something, I have to learn all that I can about it, that way I "understand" how things fit in. That's why I know more music theory than I know what to do with - I thought it would make me a better musician and it probably would, if only I practiced it

[PoodlesAgain]

I knew about the Sazerac cocktail history, and because of that, actually got into absinthe baby steps with some cheap stuff,. Interesting, when done right.

Same as you, I like to study stuff, and, as a matter of fact, I find the whole New Orleans . Musically, there is a vibe there that permeates every style, love it. Check out the non-commercial local radio festival-in-place, September 4-7 and 11-13 on WWOZ 90.7FM, a stream of past festival highlights, A. Toussaint, Nevilles, Dr, John, wonky brass ensembles, on and on.

[Gear_Junky]

One comment I would make about sipping spirits: I found especially with whiskey that the same dram can be perceived very differently depending on so many factors: your mood, weather, what you ate earlier, whether or not you're thirsty, etc. Some of my current favorites... I hated the very first pour, so don't judge a bottle by the first taste. It needs to breathe and you need to find a balance. I was reminded of this by a discussion I saw about guitar tone, how sometimes you love your tone one moment and hate it at a different time, despite it being the same guitar through the same amp/settings.

Some spirits are more mainstream and easy to like all the time (most mainstream cognacs and the sweeter whiskies). Some are "difficult" as in it takes more effort to appreciate them. These are usually the more interesting - not dumbed down with sweetness and "smoothness". I don't look for smoothness, I look for interest.